Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 11 - Break The Ice

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talah

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Hey everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to suspect test Kyurem.



Kyurem has been a staple in the SS OU metagame as an offensive threat since its introduction to SS OU. Having garnered more attention as a controversial presence in recent months, Kyurem's diverse set mix allows for it to make the most of its practical attacking movepool and superb natural bulk. These characteristics make Kyurem both very accessible within games and very threatening when entering the battlefield. Typically the barrier of entry for top-tier breakers is higher due to being more fragile or quite slow whereas many bulkier attackers lack the sheer offensive presence to break teams, but Kyurem is capable of putting it all together. Of course there are still some limiting factors such as being forced to run Heavy-Duty Boots or taking super-effective damage from Stealth Rocks and being very easy to revenge kill due to a middling speed tier, which can keep the metagame very playable with Kyurem in the tier. However, given community and council support, the OU council has deemed Kyurem suspect worthy.

Kyurem is able to run a multitude of offensive and defensive sets and with entirely separate checks to each. The relatively newer set that some would argue pushed it over the edge consists of Ice Beam / Freeze-Dry / Earth Power / Roost and holding Never-Melt Ice, alongside capable Defog support to make up for the lack of Heavy-Duty Boots. This set boasts effectively perfect coverage and allows Kyurem to threaten a large majority of the defensive metagame, making it difficult to reliably switch into. Kyurem's high base Special Attack along Never-Melt Ice make its Ice STAB moves very powerful, with Earth Power hitting Pokemon that resist them such as Heatran and Melmetal super effectively. A Kyurem using this set limits its reliable and typically viable switch-ins to the highly exclusive pool of Scizor, Specially Defensive Clefable, Volcarona, and Blissey. However, Kyurem's STABs also have the ability to freeze the opponent. Since using those moves will force its opponents to use their recovery moves, Kyurem can continuously roll the dice for a freeze and turn an otherwise would be counter into fodder. This even further constricts the defensive measures players can take in their teams and means giving Kyurem any sort of breathing room can quickly result in it grabbing a KO.

Kyurem can also run a variety of other sets, including different sets focusing on Special Attack as well as Dragon Dance. One of Kyurem's most consistently popular sets throughout the generation has been Substitute / Freeze-Dry / Earth Power / Roost. Much like the 3 attacks + Roost set, SubRoost Kyurem aims to abuse the perfect coverage provided to it through Freeze-Dry + Earth Power and leveraging Freeze-Dry's 10% chance to freeze while outlasting a lot of the moves that its defensive checks use to break its Substitutes through Pressure. Choice Specs is another solid option for breaking-focused Kyurem sets, rendering its already strong moves exceptionally difficult to switch into and limits what few reliable defensive counterplay options it has even further through careful choice of coverage. Blissey and Scizor are able to be 2HKO'd by 2 Specs Focus Blast hits, whereas Volcarona cannot reliably switch into STAB Draco Meteors. Kyurem can opt to make use of its versatile movepool with a set of Freeze-Dry / Earth Power / Roost and a different coverage move, usually Draco Meteor or Flash Cannon, alongside Heavy-Duty Boots for a less powerful but more diverse version of the Ice Beam set. Lastly, Kyurem is an excellent user of Dragon Dance. The set most oft used is Dragon Dance / Substitute / Icicle Spear / Roost alongside Heavy-Duty Boots or Leftovers, and is the premier set that abuses Kyurem's Pressure. Through clever use of Substitute + Roost, Kyurem is able to muscle past Pokemon such as Clefable and Ferrothorn that are otherwise decent defensive counterplay to it. It boasts an uncanny ability to sweep unprepared teams and in virtue of having very different checks to its Special focused sets, it makes identifying the correct gameplan against it much harder.

Kyurem's high versatility is also complemented by its great natural bulk and access to reliable recovery in Roost. When positioned correctly, Kyurem becomes extremely difficult to take advantage of with only a handful of offensive Pokemon being able to reliably threaten it. It is even able to switch itself into powerful moves from other offensive behemoths and heal them off, notably Heatran's Magma Storm and find opportunities that Pokemon of its offensive status would normally be unable to find. Its range of sets and spreads combined with its noteworthy baseline qualities make it a threat unlike no other in the tier.

Despite Kyurem's numerous positive qualities, it is not without shortcomings and has been a controversial metagame presence because of them. Despite excellent natural bulk, Kyurem's Stealth Rock weakness tends to hold it back from being able to make full use of it as it is forced to either use Heavy-Duty boots and suffer reduced power or utility, or use a different item and have to play the hazard game. It has a base speed of 95, a rather middle of the pack speed tier by OU standards, leaving it vulnerable to being revenge killed by faster strong Pokemon such as Kartana, Weavile and Dragapult. The latter two in particular remain problematic presences for it, as Weavile can switch into Kyurem's STABs and Earth Powers and threaten it in return, while Dragapult can revenge it behind its Substitutes because of Infiltrator. Furthermore, its defensive typing leaves a lot to be desired. Despite boasting some key type resistances, such as Water and Electric, Pokemon of those types tend to carry other moves that threaten it, like Urshifu-Rapid-Strike having Close Combat or Tapu Koko using Dazzling Gleam. It is additionally very prone to Knock Off and will usually want to avoid a Knock Off from Pokemon such as Tornadus-Therian which it otherwise threatens effectively. This reduces the chances it gets to wreak havoc and helps keep it in check through offensive pressure rather than defensive reactivity.

Kyurem has rightfully been a hotly debated topic in recent months, with it finally reaching a tipping point in the latest survey. Its already substantial movepool received a number of significant buffs in Sword & Shield, and with recent meta developments, many believe it to be too centralizing a force. Exceptional set variety combined with beyond solid base stats and few, relatively easy to patch weaknesses, arguably push it over the edge.


  • ***THIS IS NEW TO SS OU SUSPECTS*** Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430

  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUTH. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUTH talah.
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  • We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The aspect being tested, Kyurem, will be allowed on the ladder.
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  • The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until December 12 at 11:59 pm (GMT-5), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:


  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
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    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
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Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Moderation team.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and stan LOONA!
 
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:bw/kyurem: :bw/kyurem: :bw/kyurem:

So I’m gonna give my day 1 opinion to the suspect. Kyurem is a big presence in the current OU format. New tools in Dragon Dance and Icicle Spear have given rise to new sets, Freeze-Dry helps it break through the waters that Ice types normally struggle with, and it has amazing stats of 680 BST. Now, why hasn’t it been banned already? Those stats I just previously mentioned are spread out, giving it great offenses, passable bulk, and a middling speed stat. It also has a disappointing lack of Physical moves, limited to Icicle Spear, which is inconsistent, and it’s special sets have many counters. Specs struggles with Bulky Heatran that eats Ice Beam, Roost 3 Attacks struggles with pink blobs, the occasional Volcarona can use it as setup fodder, and so forth.

Now, Kyurem also is plagued by what item it picks. Boots or Specs are arguably the best, but each has their own issues. Specs has unrivaled breaking power, and Boots doesn’t struggle against hazards. However, Boots is typically more defensive, which is bad when your typing is Dragon/Ice, and Specs requires a lot of support.

As it’s the first day, I’m not going to set any opinions in stone yet (though I am leaning towards DNB), but I am going to try to get reqs if I can. Best of luck to those who want to get reqs, and I am excited to see all of the opinions.
 
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Niko

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i'll try to be short cuz nobody reads wall of texts and we saw enough about this dude yet:

- the coverage is almost perfect, the few things not dying still have a very high risk to be frozen. 10% chance becomes smth solid when you can spam dry/beam multiple times before withdrawing in front of the (soft) checks. for example, after 3 freeze dries chances are 27% which is close to a scald burn. boots neutralize one of the most annoying weakness, the hazards, but actually dozens of variants regarding items, movepool and EV spreads are viable and require different approaches to face them. for sure not a healthy situation for smth with such a good natural firepower, and i'm only considering the special kyurem right now

- just the fact that physical kyurem exists and that it can do this and this (i only looked in felix reps, there are hundreds similar) is a permanent worry for a player facing kyurem. there are maybe 3 mons that can reliably deal with this thing long term and they are all kinda easy to overload, once you know that it's all you got to do. and so people developed strats with flame body, magnezone, cresselia...but this kind of cheese isn't that healthy if you think about it.

- revenge killing is way harder than it looks, kyurem is very bulky especially with defensive spreads that aren't rare at all. it is also a big pain in the builder (because of what i said before, checks are almost non-existent and some are suboptimal, you wouldn't play them if not for kyu) and in the actual game and something that you always end up hating when you face it. this is for sure a problem in ladder but not even close to the problem that it is in tournaments. fact is, except some dd sets, kyurem is a stand alone. it doesn't need specific support and so it is also very difficult to understand what specific variant the kyurem you are facing is by looking at the rest of the team.
 

Fusien

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:ss/kyurem:
The Kyurem suspect is finally here, and I have to say while I used to be against ban in the past, in recent times I’m more in favor of it.

The reasons for banning Kyurem boil down to 3 categories imo: it’s incredible offensive prowess, the multitude of sets it can run, and to a lesser extent, it’s ability to cheese it’s answers through freeze and it’s strong base stats.

Offensive Potential
Kyurem’s Ice Beam Freeze Dry Earth Power coverage lacks any resists in OU, and when boosted by an item (Never Melt Ice (Nmi) or Specs), becomes insanely destructive against most teams. While this was also the case before with Specs, the recent rise in Never Melt Ice takes this too far, allowing Kyurem to switch up moves and as such not be predicted around as easily as it would be if it was choice locked. Specs, though less flexible and more outdated, also offers the mass wall breaking potential, and the additional ability to break Scizor and Blissey with its Focus Blast. The immense offensive pressure Kyurem puts on teams causes heavy team building issues; there are effectively 3 very solid kyurem answers in OU: Scizor, Blissey, and Volcarona. These 3 mons are relatively hard to fit on most teams, and as such most teams are weak to Kyurem’s coverage. While Galarian Slowking may be mentioned, the problem is it is rather easily overwhelmed, especially with rocks up, and weakened for the next encounter. Galarian Slowking is eventually forced to switch out and let a mon take a strong hit. Additionally, Galarian Slowking has to rely on Sludge Bomb poison to fully annoy Kyurem, otherwise Kyurem is able to continue to be a heavy nuisance, and if Never Melt Ice, Kyurem is able to roost off potential damage later. As for semi-answers, Spdef Corv and Clef take large damage and depend on Kyurem’s fishes for freezes or crits due to their passive situation to not get lucky, Weavile and Ferrothorn get chipped very easily, and AV Melmetal, while handling ice moves, is annoyed by Earth Powers on switches, especially due to its lack of recovery. Non AV Melmetal is far shakier vs Kyurem too. While there are ways to revenge Kyurem, most notable being Dragapult, most of these mons can’t switch into Kyurem’s attacks and have to rely on predictions or sacks to come in. Finally, though Kyurem may be compared to Specs Lele, Kyurem possesses a strong ice move which lacks immunities and in many scenarios resists, compared to Lele’s stabs respectively. Nmi Kyurem also is able to switch up moves to attack the proper target, while most Leles are forced to predict the target coming in.

Sets
Another key aspect of Kyurem is the amount of sets it can run. Yes, mons can run plenty of sets, this isn’t new, but Kyurem’s flexibility of set and it’s ability to beat the answers that check other sets consistently is very notable.
The main Kyurem sets at the moment are Never Melt Ice, Choice Specs, Sub Offensive, Sub Spdef, and Sub Dragon Dance. Rarer sets exist as well like Scarf and others as well. With the right set, Kyurem is able to beat several otherwise would be answers or semi answers. For example, Sub Kyurem is able to effectively beat Galarian Slowking, and Sub Dd is able to potentially beat Spdef Corv and Clef, while avoiding the revenge killing problem, and Never Melt Ice and Specs work as classicly strong wall breaker Kyurem sets, and even sometimes are able to bluff being each other to get a lure off (Specs Focus Blasting a Scizor or Bliss, and the famous Kyurem catching a Tran who comes in on Specs Ice Beam, only to get blasted by a Earth Power due to it being Never Melt Ice).
This, along with the crazy offensive potential Kyurem has, heavily restricts team building.

Freeze and Stat Distribution
Some people have remarked upon how the possibility of Kyurem freezing it’s supposed answers is unfair and should be a reason for it’s ban. I don’t believe this to be a main reason at all compared to the other two factors I have mentioned, but admittedly there is some merit in this and how dumb it is when your answer gets frozen and so you lose, further increased in possibility by how often Kyurem spams its ice move. Some people may bring up Shadow Ball spdef drops as a similar problem, and honestly to an effect it is, but what makes Kyurem freeze more problematic in this scenario for me is how it already is on a broken mon and just offers even more brokenness than it already is, rather than being the main reason it’s broken. As for stats, Kyurem excels, with its high special attack, attack, bulk, and moderate speed. This allows Kyurem to be creative in the sets and scenarios it wants to run, and allows for even sets like wall breaker to pivot in on weak to moderate hits in case of emergencies to fire off strong hits. While Stealth Rock is annoying, it is supported by Defog, and Boots and Roost sets are able to mitigate some of its annoyance. Even sets like Specs only take 25%, which while frustrating is far from devastating, especially with how bulky Kyurem is.

In conclusion, due to Kyurem’s intense offensive, set potential, and battle possibilities, I will be voting Ban.
 
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As much as I love Kyurem, I'm indifferent to whether or not it gets the boot, especially since I haven't been super closely following SwSh Ou. Instead I want to talk about potential "winners and losers" of the Kyurem ban that may be upon us.


Winners

Dragonite went from a unique presence and Cinderace check to amazing once people started exploring it more as a unique sweeper with colorful coverage and the ability to check the then abundant Rillaboom and Urshifu-R to mediocre again once Kyurem and Weavile usage exploded. With Kyurem out of the picture it seems a lot easier to check Weavile since you don't need multiple ice checks, and a lot of the double steel cores that annoy it may die down without Kyurem.

There's definitely a correlation between Kyurem being so good and other dragons being forgotten. Hydreigon has a lot going for it, but unfortunately so much of what it does is outclassed by Kyurem. Wanted to use Specs? Specs Kyurem is absolutely devastating, even if its not the hottest set on the block right now. Wanted to use LO 3 Attacks? Never-Melt-Ice Kyurem. It has such an akward place in the meta due to Kyurems presence, and because it won't see use over Kyurem on most teams, its limitations that come with its defensive typing hurt that much more for it.

Kyurem might be the one thing stopping Tornadus from reaching the S ranks. AV becomes a significantly better blanket check to special attackers without mister ice demon dragon, and Defogging is akward since you clear hazards for the opponents Kyurem. It is a solid partner to your own Kyurem, but Tornadus would probably become ever so slightly more productive without Kyurem in the picture, and that little push can definitely propel it to stardom.

Losers (Only putting 1 for now because I'm suddenly hella lazy)

This things entire job in the current meta is checking Kyurem. If Kyurem is banned it can go back to being the special sponge that doesn't actually deal with special attackers!




 

Mimikyu Stardust

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at first i was on the bandwagon of "i mean this thing is anoyying and can sometimes be hard to wall, especially when spamming rain.. tho i think its not too unhealthy that it should be banned...." untill i meet the SubDD set.

this set INVALIDATES a lot of pokemon, it is unreasonably tanky, able to take a modest :tapu-lele: Lele moonblast, 3 :ferrothorn: ferrothorn iron head and body press, :zeraora: zera close combat with ease, and 1v1 mons that it really, really shouldnt, and if partner with things like double defog, steels like :melmetal: melm or :heatran: heatran, :mew: Demon Mew, :kartana: Kart it really is suffocating for most teams to get through

EXAMPLE OF MONS IT REALLY SHOULDNT BEAT:
:heatran: Heatran gets pp stalled
:ferrothorn: pp stalled
:urshifu: you may think a bulky physdef water fighting type beats kyurem, but kyurem subs on it switching in, Dragon Dances, then sub stall it (only needs 4 turns due to low pp),
:tapu-fini: no tapu fini wants to get in on kyurem fearing Freeze Dry from :never-melt-ice: (never melt ice) NMI or Specs, evenif they knew its sub dd, it still gets stalled
:blaziken: i saw a post before saying blaziken beats kyurem.... well thats false, you get pp stalled, and by the time you can get a safe hit in blaziken defenses wouldve either dropped to 0 and dies to 1 icicle spear, or have killed itself from recoil + life orb. very bad counter, thought to mention it.
:corviknight: well unless youre ID Body press, you are set up fodder
:scizor: YES, it can break sub but it just gets stalled out by Icicle Spear + Roost
:garchomp: you'd be surprised how well kyurem takes scale shot.

those are just 4 example from the many mons in OU which this set invalidates, and the worst part is...

The pokemon that SubDD kyurem beat, are beaten by other kyurem sets, and vise versa (Blissey and Glowking beaten by dd for example)

:never-melt-ice: NMI, :choice-specs: Specs, :heavy-duty-boots: Sub boots offensive sets, or even the unholy :choice-scarf: scarf kyurem beats all the things that can beat the DD kyurem set, :melmetal: Melm gets 2hko by earth power/focus blast, :tyranitar: ttar can beat DD with banded rockblast, and tank Specs set with some investment, but the NMI set makes it not good as a counter for it. These are just 2 examples to make this post shorter.

realistically the only counters to ANY kyurems are :shedinja: Shedinja, :tapu-lele: Lele, :scizor: scizor, :jirachi: jirachi, and :melmetal: AV Melm. these are the only mon that beat ALL of the kyurem set and some of these, get destroyed by its common partners like :landorus-therian: lando-t, :tornadus-therian: Torn-T, :corviknight: Corvi, :melmetal: their own melmetal, :magnezone: Zone for trapping. So i really think this mon is unhealthy for the metagame and should be banned and also so i can keep spamming rain like i used to and not having to change team styles like i have to.

plus there are other set like :heat-rock: Kyurem Under Sun, Hail and Rain making it even less wallable, or :life-orb: Offensive DD set on HO making this mon even more versatile and suffocating to reliably check. so im gonna 100% vote Ban
 
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Finchinator

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Id say keep it where it is because although it is highly usable with heavy duty boots, it definitely can be countered especially with Pokémon like zeraora, and blaziken (I've used both to counter) and both these Pokémon have a variety of other uses so lets keep it in.
A reminder that a counter has to be able to reliably switch in and defeat or force out a Pokemon throughout the span of the game. Neither of these Pokemon can switch-in once against, let alone consistently defeat, Kyurem. Being able to win 1-on-1 scenarios does not always accumulate to that much in the context of games.
 
Kyurem is one of the strongest mons in OU, but (in my opinion) it's not broken.

i won't deny that kyurem has a great matchup vs a lot of balance and rain teams, and its unpredictability can sometimes make it difficult to outplay before scouting. that being said, like every other ou pokemon, there are viable ways around it and ultimately you can always play better around it. i'll try to adress a few arguments i've seen, but i doubt i'll be able to convince anyone.

freeze - is comparable to Dragapult's spdef drops. breaks through mons it shouldn't because of luck, which can very easily lead to games being lost. but a 10% chance is not enough to be broken when 20% shadow ball drops exist on Blaceph and Pult which do the exact same thing in practice. rng will always be a part of mons and just because a breaker happens to run ice beam that isn't really a sufficient argument as to making a mon broken enough to be banned. i think it's kind of biased and unfair to say that kyu's a threat because it's leveraging just a 10% chance to freeze. plus i'm not sure what the point in mentioning blissey (which has natural cure 96%) was in the original text. and if your only kyu answer is spdef clef your team is probably bad without kyu anyway. honestly i feel urshifu, melmetal and dragapult force even more in the teambuilder than kyurem does. there are even arguments for weavile, volcarona, regieleki, even arctozolt too. kyu is at a level where yeah it's a huge threat that you can't be completely unprepared for but it's limited enough to where counterplay is reasonable and would be viable in a meta without it.

forcing teambuilder decisions on certain archetypes - this especially applies to balance and rain which often seem to have to run spdef scizor/ferro to be viable. i would argue rain already runs one of those mons anyway for other matchups, and balance does have other options in volcarona, ttar, their own bulky kyurem, blissey + something to get past sub kyu, av glowking (which it would run anyway), etc. but if that list is still too short for you, compare it to stall, which is forced to choose from an even narrower set of options to get past heatran. it also struggles with mons like urshi+FS, lele, gengar, crawdaunt, etc and so it does often end up either having to use a valuable team slot on a counterpick or else it just struggles with certain matchups. on the opposite end, trick room gets screwed over by melmetal so often has to run suboptimal techs to get around that. there is no reason (other than favouritism) to be overly protective towards balance when the same standards are not applied to other archetypes.

unpredictability - i mean, we allow mew. it can run spikes, SD, DD, NP, CPSP with taunt roost, CPBP, CPSPBP with rest, imprison trap, defensive utility, in theory even specs band and scarf.... i would have much preferred a mew suspect test tbh but my point is that if this is your reasoning for banning kyurem why don't you hold mew to the same standard? sometimes you do have to scout out a set, aim to predict it based on team structure, revenge kill if you get it wrong initially.... all just a part of playing well. versatility is a valuable trait in offensive pokemon, you see it in Pult and Dnite too, for example, but it doesn't make a mon broken unless you can point to any one individual set and say it's too strong. you'd be falling into the same trap the 'ban lando' kids do.

overall i can see the arguments for kyurem being banned but i'm not convinced. i think arguments for other mons like mew and pult are stronger but still not enough to make any justified changes to the metagame. if people just said they were bored and wanted to shake things up that'd be based but if you're claiming it's a broken mon i'm just not going to agree with you right now.

tl;dr if i can stop throwing and get reqs i'll vote Do Not Ban
 
To me, the pro-ban side has so far failed to really provide any reason why Kyurem is so much better and unhealthier than other wallbreakers in the tier. Kyurem is definitely one of the best wallbreakers but so are Melmetal, Dragapult or even Kartana. It doesn't seem much more centralizing or restrictive than other breakers and doesn't require the player to run anything remotely unconventional. So I ask the question: What really makes Kyurem so much less manageable than any of the aforementioned breakers? Because right now it looks like this suspect is being brought up mainly because the metagame "needs some change" or is "dull" rather than because it is unhealthy. Thanks for your responses!
 

Mimikyu Stardust

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To me, the pro-ban side has so far failed to really provide any reason why Kyurem is so much better and unhealthier than other wallbreakers in the tier. Kyurem is definitely one of the best wallbreakers but so are Melmetal, Dragapult or even Kartana. It doesn't seem much more centralizing or restrictive than other breakers and doesn't require the player to run anything remotely unconventional. So I ask the question: What really makes Kyurem so much less manageable than any of the aforementioned breakers? Because right now it looks like this suspect is being brought up mainly because the metagame "needs some change" or is "dull" rather than because it is unhealthy. Thanks for your responses!
ill help you provide more indepth of why im pro BAN.

KYUREM is versatile, it has so many sets with so many things it can do, for example, SubDD is a good BO/Balance breaker that pp stalls, subs and DD on the opposing team. it beats things it shouldnt beat like shifu, ferro, tran, lele, fini, corvi, etc. and once set up it cant be broken or RKILLED at all as it has high bulk. this invalidates many team style like BO, Balance, weather and even some HO.

now the counters are Melmetal, tyranitar, clefable, lele and scizor... the thing is those mons i mentioned crumpled to NMI or Specs kyurem set.

and DD also beats all the special kyurem checks (Blissey, Glowking, Ferro)

so kyurem has 2 sets that completely kill the other sets checks and counter, and the thing is, some might say that "just look at the build dude" and i hvae, but recently ive seen specs kyurem on bulky teams and SubDD on offensive teams, and it works, so this proves that it can fit on ANY TEAM with most sets and still work, making it versatile and suffocating.

"what about lando tho? it fits everywhere"

the thing about lando is that it doesnt sweep teams out right, its a glue for most teams and can fit to compress rolls like Knocker, Defogger, Scarfer, Pivot, Rocker, Cleaner, Late Game sweeper. while kyurem even on SubRoost, SubDD, Specs, NMI, can outright sweep teams with ease, and also provide a good defensive backbone for your team too, and puts the opponent on the backfoot every second because one wrong play it just outright sweeps (think of Volcarona in ORAS, DD Gyara in DPP) but this time its very bulky and has less switchins.


NOW LOOK AT THESE 6 MONS AND TELL ME, WHAT CAN BE THE POTENTIAL SETS OF THE KYUREM (BASED ON TEAMS I SAW ON TOURS AND 1900+ OU LADDER)

1.
:ss/slowking-galar: :ss/zeraora: :ss/hippowdon: :ss/kyurem: :ss/urshifu: :ss/corviknight:

2.
:ss/magnezone: :ss/landorus-therian: :ss/tornadus-therian: :ss/melmetal: :ss/toxapex: :ss/kyurem:

3.
:ss/kyurem: :ss/cresselia: :ss/landorus-therian: :ss/zapdos: :ss/corviknight: :ss/suicune:

4.
:ss/hydreigon: :ss/kyurem: :ss/toxapex: :ss/landorus-therian: :ss/heatran: :ss/tornadus-therian:

5.
:ss/kyurem: :ss/landorus-therian: :ss/tornadus-therian: :ss/melmetal: :ss/toxapex: :ss/heatran:

6.
:ss/kyurem: :ss/landorus-therian: :ss/mew: :ss/heatran: :ss/corviknight: :ss/kartana:

7.
:ss/kyurem: :ss/torkoal: :ss/tapu-bulu: :ss/landorus-therian: :ss/corviknight: :ss/victini:
8.
:ss/hawlucha: :ss/tapu-koko: :ss/kartana: :ss/mew: :ss/kyurem: :ss/zeraora:

1. Specs
2. Specs
3. SubDD
4. Sub Roost offensive
5. sub DD
6. Specs
7. Never Melt Ice
8. Sub DD

if you get all of them right, grats but if you dont... do you see what i mean? and if you actually look at the builds, any set can fit in any of those teams. For Example: Number 2 is a common build and ive seen some people slot SubDD on it and it works still, or Number 8 specs or DD special life orb works there too. and like i said before, all of those sets require very different sets of answer, so if you guessed it wrong, thats a potential lost.

if you have ever faced a kyurem PP Stall team or any good BO with kyurem in it, you will know why it having this much versatility hurts. and not to mention, there are things like Weather Kyurem making it even more unwallable under sand or hail, HO with SubDD kyurem making it IMPOSSIBLE TO ohko and gets free DD with its huge bulk investment.

with all of these in mind, the only realiable kyurem counter is Melmetal, Lele and Scizor. scizor and lele i am hesitant to put, as scizor doesnt beat DD and lele cant switch in at all.



if you actually try to build to be able to counter ALL of the kyurem sets that exist, and potential partners, its very restricting and generally unhealthy to the meta. And remember

KYUREM FREEZES, so if you get unlucky even once, kyurem now has a huge advantage and a free turn for it to wreak havoc, switch, free sub or free roost which is devastating when you think about something as powerful as kyurem. Remember this isn't a para or Spdef drop that you can either brute force through or switch out. It's free turns, from 1-7 turns of not being able to do anything but switch or give free turns, NO OTHER offensive pokemon with this power is able to spread freezes as often as this, except for maaaaybe melmetal and it's flinches.

im gonna finish this post here for now and post replays later down the line.

(REPLAYS HERE)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1461513480-8i5x92y0wstkqgp3x00njwt2qwovh2ipw look at what i have to do to not immediately lose to DD kyurem + Demon Mew, its not easy.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1455201043-5burg657mywhpk7s05iuefc7lxrllf7pw not quite as bad as before but DD kyurem took 68% from modest lele.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1440611585-gpzgm8qn1h3f6kqvqrp02zsrsfqvvvppw heres me struggling again.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-582952 also the infamous replay of the kyurem 6-0 in scl


NOW i know what youre gonna say, "Youre using rain, thats a bad match up vs kyurem" yes it is. but unfortunately i only have rain replays, i have had teams with melmetal, volcarona and garchomp still struggle vs kyurem as the kyurem teams usually carry A LOT of answer for those, and it still is suffocating.
 
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Well.... the day finally came for a kyurem test... If I Have the time I am voting BAN. It is just stupid on how restrictive it is on teambuilding, you have like a few checks and counters that can reliably switch in such as scizor, blissey, slowking-g, and volcarona to an extent. Scizor and slowking-g have to be in pristine shape to be able to reliably come in and even then slowking-g fails to threaten it besides sludge bomb which is a 30% toss if you are able to dent it or not which is not really good odds to rely on. Scizor also has to be in a reliable condition to counter it because kyurem can just switch out to something such as magnzone, support via knock off and hazards to bring scizor into range, and heatran who gets free turns on scizor roosting, or it can just flat out focus blast for 50 and threaten a 2hko on the spot. If kyurem even gets one predict right scizor is in a tough spot as its got to switch out but it has to roost against something? heatran is a great partner for kyurem and its just giving up free turns to one of the other good wallbreakers.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 101-119 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 8.2% chance to 3HKO (this is still pretty big damage to a max sp. def mon who resists it)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 179-211 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 117-138 (29.6 - 35%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Specs is not the only set tho... it runs Sub roost, NMI, and DD. DD makes pokemon like tangrowth, slowbro, ferrothorn, and heatran set up fother and being able to sweep some teams on the spot after it sets up a sub and dd in front of the correct pokemon. Never Melt Ice uses its excelent coverage and longetivity to break through its ways of playing around it which is switching to a scout and switching out... but not with NMI kyurem. Sub roost completely turns the tables on clefable, ferrothorn, and can scout switches and make revenging it even harder.... Most of its counterplay is shaky to decent at best or hard to fit like shedinja, sp. def tyranitar, aegislash, and jirachi.

It does not feel healthy as its counters can easily be exploited to such as torn-t removing boots and being able to pivot it in against pokemon that would be fine against it such as toxapex, slowking, and corviknight. While pokemon like heatran pray on the steel types that counter kyurem and need to spend recovering giving it a free turn as well.

Yeah... kyurem is broken and needs to be banned... feels to restrictive and even then counterplay is limited to what it can do
 
Kyurem is broken and needs a ban easily, it’s super restrictive on the teambuilder and being forced to run trash mons like scizor/blissey/bulky volc on every team is stupid, it’s semi checks like av melm, spdef clef, gking all get frozen or lose to its perfect coverage or it’s other sets, Kyurem has been one of the best wallbreakers in the tier for a long while now and there’s many reason why, I will be voting BAN.
 
Hey! It's been a while. Thought I'd pop in on the Kyurem suspect seeing as it's been here for quite a while and this is a rather important suspect test.

Just went 27-3 on my most recent reqs attempt, gotta start working on not letting that stress get to me.

Now, more importantly...

Get Kyurem and his freeze ray out of here.

:kyurem: Kyurem has by far been one of the most infamous things to think about in the teambuilder, and often leaves sizeable holes in teams to take advantage of. It faces the same sort of situation :magearna: Magearna did, where it has multiple good sets, those of which have vastly different counters and checks. This leads to many problems in team preparation -- even though you can tell what set a particular Kyurem is by team preview, it doesn't help the fact you need multiple different Pokemon aimed towards defeating Kyurem to consistently handle each set. It's ridiculous how powerful this Pokemon is, especially when considering that nothing in OU resists Freeze-Dry and Earth Power, two moves every special Kyurem set carries. And that's not to say physical Kyurem is anything to scoff at, either. In fact, physical Kyurem is exactly why I think :blissey: Blissey and :scizor: Scizor are unreliable in regards to walling this Pokemon, as they do not beat nearly enough sets to warrant being a 'Kyurem answer'. Nearly every time it comes in, Kyurem forces the opponent to make varying levels of predictions just to hope that they can avoid sacking a Pokemon to the monster.

The fact that it forces :tapu_fini: Tapu Fini out, a Pokemon that it would have despised fighting in the previous generation if Kyurem was relevant then, is appalling. The joke that every team loses to Kyurem is realistically no longer a joke. Please, get rid of this empty husk of a dragon.
 
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IPF

sundown
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Usually when a suspect test rolls around I make a post to make my case for why a ban should or shouldn't happen. Kyurem's been a hugely influential mon throughout the entirety of this gen, and while it may not be deemed 'broken' by the general public, I think most tour and high ladder players are pretty tired of having to deal with it in recent times. Here's my reasoning for why I believe it should be BANNED.
Kyurem.png

Screenshot 2021-11-30 at 9.09.40 PM.png

Used the above two teams, the top one for the first 25 games before switching over to the other to finish off the run. Had a pretty smooth run, the common factor in all my games being Kyurem absolutely demolishing everyone.

Now if Kyurem's only viable sets were Specs and NeverMeltIce, I'd probably vote no ban, but the set that pushes it over the edge for me is SubDD. The answers to both sets barely overlap and on a lot of teams they are completely interchangeable. For example, I used NMI on the second team, but SubDD would be just as, if not more effective.

I'm not going to bore you with calcs and such, but bulky SubDD munches hits and sets up on mons that you would expect to beat it for fun due to its ridiculous bulk and access to Pressure. Icicle Spear also has an absurd amount of PP, which might seem unimportant but is extremely important in longer matches to stall out Toxapex Hazes. Pair it with Magnezone and you're removing the very few mons that can consistently answer it. Pairing it with Lunar Dance support in Cresselia is absolutely demonic as well, pretty much ensuring you win drawn out games where Pex is the designated answer.

I don't think I need to talk too much about NMI or Specs sets, they hit like an absolute truck and with some smart clicking can blow a game wide open. Ice and Ground is basically perfect coverage after factoring in Freeze Dry and pretty much the entire tier folds to 2 hits. You know what this shit does.

Not gonna stretch this out more than I need to. Very few viable counters, incredible versatility, autowin potential, and a solid defensive presence as well. Niko's post summarises everything pretty damn well, and upon reading this back I feel like I'm just parroting his points LOL. Just ban the thing once voting starts, thanks for reading.
 

ScalchopFren

is my name really that hard to read?
is a Smogon Discord Contributor
I have neither the time playing OU nor the personal time (school :psyangry: ) to participate in this suspect, but I just wanted to provide one statement in favor of the ban arguments:

i'll try to be short cuz nobody reads wall of texts and we saw enough about this dude yet:

- the coverage is almost perfect, the few things not dying still have a very high risk to be frozen. 10% chance becomes smth solid when you can spam dry/beam multiple times before withdrawing in front of the (soft) checks. for example, after 3 freeze dries chances are 27% which is close to a scald burn. boots neutralize one of the most annoying weakness, the hazards, but actually dozens of variants regarding items, movepool and EV spreads are viable and require different approaches to face them. for sure not a healthy situation for smth with such a good natural firepower, and i'm only considering the special kyurem right now

- just the fact that physical kyurem exists and that it can do this and this (i only looked in felix reps, there are hundreds similar) is a permanent worry for a player facing kyurem. there are maybe 3 mons that can reliably deal with this thing long term and they are all kinda easy to overload, once you know that it's all you got to do. and so people developed strats with flame body, magnezone, cresselia...but this kind of cheese isn't that healthy if you think about it.

- revenge killing is way harder than it looks, kyurem is very bulky especially with defensive spreads that aren't rare at all. it is also a big pain in the builder (because of what i said before, checks are almost non-existent and some are suboptimal, you wouldn't play them if not for kyu) and in the actual game and something that you always end up hating when you face it. this is for sure a problem in ladder but not even close to the problem that it is in tournaments. fact is, except some dd sets, kyurem is a stand alone. it doesn't need specific support and so it is also very difficult to understand what specific variant the kyurem you are facing is by looking at the rest of the team.
I think the replays in this thread are maybe the most eye-opening part of this entire discussion. The fact that felix could match into a team with ColburPress Bro AND Flash Cannon Tran — two bulky mons that both resist Ice and have super-effective coverage — and still 6-0 with subDD Kyurem is pretty telling of how stupid this mon is.
 
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To me, the pro-ban side has so far failed to really provide any reason why Kyurem is so much better and unhealthier than other wallbreakers in the tier. Kyurem is definitely one of the best wallbreakers but so are Melmetal, Dragapult or even Kartana. It doesn't seem much more centralizing or restrictive than other breakers and doesn't require the player to run anything remotely unconventional. So I ask the question: What really makes Kyurem so much less manageable than any of the aforementioned breakers? Because right now it looks like this suspect is being brought up mainly because the metagame "needs some change" or is "dull" rather than because it is unhealthy. Thanks for your responses!
Hmmmm let us check.... perfect coverage for anything it wants? Check! Variety of sets that share pretty much no counters? Check! Hard to determine from team preview? Check!

Dragapult, kartana, and melmetal, have common counterplay that is seen on many teams, their sets can be determined by team preview, and just flat out dont have the power of kyurem and unpredictability and the ability to beat their counters.

The counterplay to kyurem is restricted to the otherwise bad scizor, blissey who is 2hko'ed by focus blast and pressured by other pokemon or taken advantage off like heatran, volcarona who has to not be facing draco specs kyurem and it can still be pressured to roost for free turns for heatran a common partner for kyurem. AV melmetal is a soft counter as it has no recovery, vulnurable to all hazards and is tasked with dealing with other pokemon like tapu lele, koko, dragapult, weavile, and more
 

ausma

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I got reqs on day 1, so I figure I ought to give my experience with Kyurem as of late. I'm going to keep the main team I used to myself since I plan to make a major post talking about the hidden threat on it later, though stay tuned for the HO squad I used!
1638295213428.png

I've discussed my thoughts on Kyurem as a whole in this post, and there's no point in me repeating them. However, my thoughts on it have become far more jaded as I've given it more time to fester; furthermore, with surging popularity of SubDD alongside the inherent menace of Never-Melt Ice it has become a considerably more egregious threat by merit of the unique pressure it applies onto Steel-types, and how its different sets have vastly different pools of checks, pushing it into the realm of genuine unhealthiness for the tier. I'd like to preface everything by saying that I believe Kyurem's unhealthiness stems mostly in the teambuilder; in execution, it can be fairly straight forward to stop provided you scout it correctly and you apply constant offensive pressure against it. Though, against teams with defensive backbones such as the omnipresent BO structures, it exerts a much more egregious effect, especially considering how reliant teams can be on scouting it correctly on the first try. Offensively, it can be beaten, especially with Stealth Rock in the equation, but positioning revenge killers to threaten it out often requires a sack or a defensive pillar being crucially chipped which can pave the way for other dangerous threats like Weavile and Tapu Koko which thrive on any form of chip damage; and if you're facing a random Choice Scarf, R.I.P.

Instead of talking about the same points that others have put more compactly and eloquently than I could, I'd instead like to take the approach I did with Spectrier and explain what it takes to genuinely counter Kyurem defensively, and then explain how its unique range of sets have forced specific forms of reactive counterplay in the teambuilder.

1: 1v1ing Choice Specs / Never-Melt Ice

:blissey::scizor::volcarona:

This is already off to a pretty terrible start. Most Pokemon in the tier crumble to Kyurem's infamous Freeze-Dry / Ice Beam / Earth Power combination, leaving the pool of Pokemon to soak these three moves to these three. Temporary stopgaps like Melmetal aren't really the most comfortable due to their proneness to sustain chip damage and stray Knock Off to stifle their long term longevity, too. All three of these Pokemon can casually soak Earth Power, as well as its Ice-type moves on paper, though doing so repeatedly can be very dangerous since Kyurem has the ability to fish for freezes rather safely, especially against Never-Melt Ice which has much more staying power than Choice Specs.

- Blissey is, terrifyingly enough, 2HKO'd by Choice Specs-boosted Focus Blast, which is the popular 4th move for its Choice Specs variant as an option to threaten Blissey and midground Steel-types. Blissey, though, can afford that risk generally easily since hitting two back-to-back Focus Blasts is 49%, and clicking Focus Blast on Choice Specs, which already has limited breaking opportunities, is a commitment in general. Though, of course, it's something to be aware of since 49% is not really comfortable either way, especially if Focus Blast is a safe midground otherwise. It's a decently comfortable check to Never-Melt Ice that has the plus of threatening it with status, so it's certainly not a terrible option in this context, but all things considered its general passivity is really exploitable, and if it's frozen, it's forced to pivot out if it wants to immediately thaw, which is not at all an unrealistic situation considering how spammable Kyurem's Ice-type STAB is.

- Volcarona operates solidly on its own... if it doesn't mind risking a random Draco Meteor against Choice Specs. Though, resisting Focus Blast, soaking an Earth Power, and resisting its Ice-type STAB is certainly nice provided you aren't frozen by it. Unlike Blissey's general passivity, the threat of Quiver Dance generally works as a way to swing the threat-factor your way, but since Heatran and Toxapex are such powerful Kyurem partners, it's just as likely to make literally 0 forms of progress. You ultimately force your Volcarona to take chip on the double, or fold momentum to their switch-in as you Roost and give either one of these fairly dangerous Pokemon a free progress-making opportunity.

- Scizor faces somewhat similar problems as Volcarona in this regard. While the threat of Bullet Punch lets it force switches much more comfortably, sustaining chip damage and being forced to heal on the Heatran/Toxapex pivot is not the most comfortable situation to be in. Though, it's definitely the best of the three, utilizing Knock Off to make progress against Kyurem structures and U-turn to safely pick up momentum.

2: 1v1ing SubRoost variants

:melmetal::scizor::ferrothorn:

Well, that's certainly not good.

If you haven't played against SubDD and 2 attacks before, you may be thinking to yourself: why are there only three Pokemon here? The answer lies in Pressure. Thanks to Pressure, its superb natural bulk alongside Dragon Dance and Icicle Spear's gigantic PP count really shine like little else and allow SubDD to PP stall quite literally all of its potential answers. It has the absurd ability to PP stall behemoths like Toxapex, Slowbro, Clefable, and even popular Steel-types in Heatran, making it an incredibly potent balance buster and win condition that can easily adapt to different defensive structures.

- Scizor is a familiar face that boasts an Icicle Spear resistance alongside its infamous priority, high PP, STAB, super-effective Bullet Punch to consistently threaten it, and it can safely utilize U-turn when its Substitute is down to build momentum or position an offensive threat provided it hasn't set up any Dragon Dances. Thus far, Scizor's matchup against SubDD is the only genuine hard counter against Kyurem since it's much less realistic to PP stall it in the long term, and Scizor can threaten it with Bullet Punch. However, it needs to watch out for 2 attack's Freeze fishing.

- Ferrothorn can beat SubRoost variants provided it utilizes Iron Head/Body Press, has Leftovers intact, and is generally healthy, otherwise it is setup fodder. It's alright provided it has the right moves, but PP stalling Iron Head and Body Press is much more realistic than PP stalling Scizor's Bullet Punch so Ferrothorn can lose this matchup as well.

- Melmetal is a strong answer, but certainly the least comfortable of the three. Threatening it even behind a Substitute with Double-Iron Bash is quite beneficial as a temporary stopgap, though against Pressure-cores that feature Corviknight and other natural DIB checks like Heatran, Toxapex, and Slowbro, it can very feasibly be run down of its DIB PP and very readily have progress made against it even if Melmetal deters Kyurem from setting up in the early to mid-game.

Corviknight is an honorable mention as an option that can beat 2 attacks variants and help position an offensive threat with a slow U-turn, but it loses embarassingly hard to SubDD; furthermore if it's mono Body Press, then it becomes incredibly exploitable and cripplingly passive.

3: Immediate Recovery

:blissey::scizor::volcarona::corviknight:

This category has much more commonality among potential answers, however this criterion is important because Kyurem has the ability to very feasibly run down literally all of its potential checks that lack immediate longevity. These Pokemon all have the same issues as mentioned in criterion #1, as their consistently forced recoveries are inherently exploitable and they have to deal with off-handed Freeze chances, but if you lack immediate recovery you are not likely to defensively beat any variant of Kyurem in the long-run.

---

Of these Pokemon, the closest Pokemon to a counter is Scizor, which is a fairly popular face as of late with some pretty nice role compression, though a lot of its usage stems in Kyurem's presence in the tier. Its passivity and general exploitability leaves much to be desired, especially since its HP is actively threatened by Magnezone structures and its desire to check other threats like Weavile and Melmetal in the long-run, and on top of this overwhelming it with Knock Off, status, and hazards alongside wanting to check other threats, and Kyurem has the ability to beat it if Scizor sustains too much pressure, which is not an unrealistic situation whatsoever especially if Freeze becomes a factor. Throwing Scizor onto every team though is obviously not ideal, especially considering it has some pretty major flaws that make it debilitating in non-Kyurem matchups.

Obviously, this suspect is nowhere near as black and white as Spectrier given Kyurem is much more flawed, but I wanted to take a similar approach to illustrate how answering Kyurem consistently is a monumental task. It's very often that teams are forced to stack Kyurem checks (leading to Steel-type cores being incredibly widespread) to cover its range of sets, and even if you do so, it is still nearly guaranteed to make progress if initially scouted incorrectly, particularly against Never-Melt Ice and Choice Specs. Even then, its sheer strength in some respects can stack really dangerously with other offensive threats and lead to some really dangerous overload in combination with progress-making options like Knock Off, which can open up allies to a dangerous extent. It's beatable in practice, but the sheer range of game-seizing sets it can run makes scouting and checking it properly pertinent, and consequently tends to lead to a lot of the same kinds of defensive structures. Admittedly these commonplace structures have utility against the rest of the metagame, but being pigeonholed into these structures to cover Kyurem's variants surely is not a good thing considering how there could be more optimal defensive structures to beat things like Dragapult, and how they can be run down and exploited pretty consistently anyway since a good amount of checks like Melmetal lack immediate longevity.

Tl;dr Kyurem has several game-defining sets with different pools of checks, forcing stacking of checks (Steel-types generally) more often than not to consistently beat it on BO and fatter structures without constant offensive pressure, which even then is not guaranteed due to its sheer strength and these structures' affinity to be vulnerable to Knock Off and forms residual damage; plus, Freeze odds to make counters moot as a footnote. I'll be voting to ban it.
 
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I'm leaning towards ban at the moment. The biggest problem I see with Kyurem is that team preview is a guessing game. Is the opposing Kyurem specs? Scarfed? Sub roost? Sub DD? In my opinion, it's not possible to reliably predict the correct Kyurem set from game to game. I usually have a decent game plan vs Kyurem IF I am able to find out the set in time. I know I have a unique experience because many might claim I use a gimmicky team (even though I'm around top 30-50 on the ladder at the time of writing), but when I'm making new teams I often find myself using Pokemon I normally wouldn't want to. For a while I was in my SpDef Tyranitar phase which worked until I got melted by one Focus Blast. I had similar results with Heatran. Tapu Fini is never an option because of freeze dry, and my playstyle doesn't lend well to using Blissey. My most successful team requires Umbreon to tank most of the hits (which it does decently), and if the Kyurem is ever lazy spamming ice beam, I can knock it out with Keldeo. Otherwise, I can catch Kyurem off guard by mirror coat Araquanid. This along with stealth rocks pressure is usually good enough to deal with Kyurem. That is, until you factor in freezing. I have lost far too many games to Kyurem freezing half of my team because Kyurem can fire off freeze dry and ice beam unimpeded. The freeze status is basically an RNG game of whether or not you can play the game and the frozen Pokemon is basically dead unless it miraculously thaws or is hit by a scald.

Kyurem is unrivaled in diversity of viable sets, which, combined with its incredible stats and movepool, makes it almost impossible to reliably answer it in a given game. Bulky waters, which usually cover ice weaknesses, are not a solution thanks to freeze dry, most fairies are not bulky enough to not get 2HKOed by specs ice beam. Steel types need to watch out for earth power and focus blast, as well as pressure draining their PP on their moves. Blissey might be able to handle specs and scarf Kyurem, but sub DD and sub roost sets can PP stall Blissey while behind a substitute even after a seismic toss, and boosted icicle spear can threaten a kill. Even Snorlax doesn't reliably handle Kyurem. I think OU will be healthier if Kyurem wasn't around.
 
Kyurem its specs set is just ridiculous i think we can all agree nothing can switch in.
Everything gets smacked by its coverage an dplaying around it is hard especially with voltturn involved and hazard removal like defog is easily slapped on teams.
Great mons like corviknight arr here to do it and u turn it in.
 

Shaymin Sky

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To me, the pro-ban side has so far failed to really provide any reason why Kyurem is so much better and unhealthier than other wallbreakers in the tier. Kyurem is definitely one of the best wallbreakers but so are Melmetal, Dragapult or even Kartana. It doesn't seem much more centralizing or restrictive than other breakers and doesn't require the player to run anything remotely unconventional. So I ask the question: What really makes Kyurem so much less manageable than any of the aforementioned breakers? Because right now it looks like this suspect is being brought up mainly because the metagame "needs some change" or is "dull" rather than because it is unhealthy. Thanks for your responses!
The major difference is the "counters" to kyurem aren't long term answers due to freeze, also theres both physical and special sets and prepping for both is just not realistic because both sets require different answers. You can't really say that for Melmetal for example, with Melmetal its certainly a strong breaker but the options for preparation are not only easier since you cant worry about freeze and of course melmetal has more answers than kyurem but also melmetal only has physical breaking sets. Speed is also a major factor of course but I dont think I should have to point that out. The dragapult comparison doesn't make any sense, dragapult has answers actually and although it can run physical or special the answers to dragapult are still roughly the same, spdef lando's heatrans clefables it doesnt really matter they will deal with basically all dragapult sets. The major thing that sets kyurem apart is the value you get from running kyurem is just unfair due to prep for kyurem being so straneous unconsistent and unrealistic compared to any other breaker we've seen for a while now. Suggest you watch some tournament sets for the bigger picture too.
 
Kyurem isn't broken DO NOT BAN. I'll take my haha reacts now :)

Ok but for real, Kyurem as stupid as it sounds can be compared to Spectrier in the sense that they have like 2 sets that are really predictable, but do them so well they are banworthy. Kyurem's counters are few and far between, as freeze-dry + earth power is annoying as hell to switch into. If I get reqs leaning ban.
 
Personally, if I get reqs, I will be voting for Kyurem to stay in the tier. In my opinion, it is hardly anywhere near overbearing or restrictive on teambuilding, and as much as people don't want to admit it, there are plenty of ways to reliably check it, even over the course of an overall game. I suppose I should start by highlighting those checks and counters and then going over some common arguments made in opposition.

: I don't think I even need to explain this one, but I will anyway. Melmetal checks every Kyurem set easily; its AV set especially helps against the common SubRoost set, it tanks hits from the Dragon Dance + Icicle Spear set easily, and it OHKOs it even behind Substitute with DIB. Not much more to say, honestly, but that brings up the fundamental problem with Kyurem - it's too reliant on Substitute and too many of its checks (which I'll mention later) can take advantage of this. Its issue is that its below mediocre defensive typing forces it to constantly spam Substitute and Roost away the damage, which just makes it overly passive, highly susceptible to Taunt, and allows Pokemon to switch in for free and break its Substitute, forcing it to switch out lest it be used as setup fodder. Instant recovery is what pushes Kyurem over the edge in some people's eyes, but I'd argue it forces it to, as I said before, stay more passive, which generally isn't something you want for a wallbreaker.

: Blissey hard walls every non-DD set for obvious reasons, consistently breaking Kyurem's Substitute with Seismic Toss (if it doesn't invest in HP, though it usually does (but not always lol)), afflicting it with Toxic to somewhat nullify Roost, shrugging off Ice Beam and Freeze-Dry's potential freeze chance with Natural Cure, and utilizing Aromatherapy/Heal Bell to help out teammates afflicted by freeze. Even then, the most common Blissey set can tank a DD-boosted Icicle Spear, even if it hits 5 times, which also means it can survive 2 5-hit Icicle Spears if they are unboosted (of course, these are assuming none of the hits are critical). If it can't break Substitute with ST, it can always Teleport out to safely bring in a teammate that can, like the aforementioned Melmetal (as well as others that I WILL MENTION LATER OK I'M ALREADY TIRED OF SAYING THIS).

: Tyranitar doesn't mind special attacking variants of Kyurem due to Sandstorm's 50% SpDef boost, and breaks Sub with Rock Blast, which will always break Sub even if it lands only two times, and can cripple it with Taunt or Thunder Wave. Once again, its ability to counter it is all surface-level stuff, so there isn't much to say except that Earthquake can nail Heatran, who is a common partner for Kyurem since it provides safety against strong Fire-types.

: Tapu Lele is another great offensive counter since it can switch into attacks relatively easily and get rid of Kyurem with its Moonblast, which OHKOs with Specs. Scarf variants can't OHKO it from full health, but a little bit of chip damage will put it into Moonblast range easily, and Scarf is arguably safer in certain scenarios since they both speed-tie otherwise.. Speaking of chip damage, hazards can force Kyurem to Roost constantly and give up momentum, providing opportunities for Pokemon like Lele to switch in and potentially force it out or flat out KO it. Its susceptibility to hazards, especially Stealth Rock, is why it usually runs HDB, which makes it more vulnerable to Knock Off.

: Scizor's Bullet Punch easily forces Kyurem to switch out, with a Choice Band making it a clean OHKO and its ability to force a switch especially compounded by its +1 priority, which is also helpful against DD variants. It takes hits relatively well and can handle them more easily if it chooses to go a specially defensive route to handle those sets. Great coverage in Superpower also makes some of Kyurem's common partners, such as Heatran and Magnezone, reluctant to switch in.

: Dragapult can't switch directly into Kyurem, but if it gets a clean switch, Kyurem is either forced to switch out or be wiped from the team, as Infiltrator allows Dragapult to hit Kyurem even behind Substitute. If Kyurem has whittled its health away enough from spamming Substitute, Dragapult can even safely predict with a Shadow Ball so that Steel-types that switch in will be met with a surprise when they aren't staring down a Draco Meteor.

: Volcarona turns Kyurem into setup fodder for its infamous Quiver Dance antics. It switches into attacks easily thanks to its good Special Defense alongside a resistance to Ice and a Ground neutrality, so Kyurem's only hope is aiming for that 10% freeze chance (and I don't think I need to explain why that isn't a good idea).

There are plenty of other checks and counters that usually can't directly switch in but dominate against specific sets, so I'll highlight those separately.

: OHKOs any Kyurem not behind a Substitute.
: iron head hax lol
: OHKOs any non-DD Kyurem not behind a Substitute.
: OHKOs any Kyurem not behind a Substitute and always breaks Sub with Surging Strikes.
: Walls any non-DD Kyurem, consistently breaking Substitutes with Sludge Bomb, adding additional damage with Future Sight to bypass Roost, and shrugging off Earth Power damage with Regenerator.
: Eternally walls literally every common set (only on this lower list because Shedinja is very specific and difficult to fit on teams).


Now for the section where I rebut points and arguments made in favor of Kyurem's ban.

Argument #1: Its versatility makes it difficult to actually check
This I don't entirely disagree with. While it is true that the multitude of sets Kyurem could viably run can render certain checks somewhat dummied out, people simply act as though the counters in its sets don't overlap when that couldn't be further from the truth. Simply look above and you'll see what I mean; even the slightly more fringe checks fare well against the most common sets. If you're able to build your team around its checks, which isn't a difficult ask since the main checks are all varying levels of good in their own rights, you'll handle it fine, though most people don't seem to realize that. Kyurem is one of those Pokemon where figuring out its set is key to beating it, and I anticipate that many people will respond to this by saying "Oh But By The Time You Figure The Set Out It's Already KOd Most Of Your Team." To that, I'll say this. Look at a tier like DPP Ubers. Many Pokemon in that tier have tons of viable sets they can run, which means that you're going to need to figure out the set to beat the Pokemon. Despite this, no one Pokemon absolutely rules over the tier to the point of being broken, and DPP Ubers is considered one of the best Smogon metagames ever. I ask you this; what makes Kyurem different?

Argument #2: The freeze chance lets it beat stuff it's not supposed to
I have never and will never understand this argument. How come this is only relevant to Kyurem and only brought up when talking about Kyurem? What about Buzzwole's Ice Punch or Arctozolt's Blizzard? If we want to talk about other status, then what about Blacephalon's Flamethrower? Zapdos' Discharge? Toxapex's Scald? I could keep going. See what I mean? This point is a complete double standard that people only seem to use to stretch out their argument. An argument that could apply to literally any Pokemon that uses a move that can cause status, yet is only ever brought up in the context of Kyurem.

Argument #3: It's too restrictive on teambuilding
Refer to Argument #1. The main checks/counters I listed already see a good amount of usage and are just genuinely good Pokemon on their own merits. They just happen to be able to check Kyurem. People already know how to build good teams around these Pokemon, so unless you don't use them, you'll find that they'll put in their work if you're able to fit them onto teams. I'm not necessarily sure what else to say - people like to pretend that its supposed "few counters" are rendered useless if facing certain sets, which seems like another excuse for people to scapegoat Kyurem despite their own inability to make a satisfactory team that checks it consistently and reliably.


tldr, the pro-ban side of this argument has failed to convice me that banning Kyurem is a decision that makes sense for the metagame and a decision that will leave the metagame healthier in the end. I'm not saying Kyurem is garbage, it's absolutely a fantastic Pokemon, but it's not anywhere near ban-worthy in my opinion. In recent times where Kyurem has skyrocketed in popularity, I've rarely found my teams overwhelmed by it to the point where I can say "Yeah, get it out of here."

ok i've been typing this out for the past 4 hours i might add some stuff later if i feel like it
(keep the haha reactions rolling in they only fuel me)
 
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